Making Honey Oatmeal Goat Milk Soap

3 Feb

I finally got around to making my honey oatmeal goat milk soap (try saying that fast three times).

You can find the recipe I used HERE.

Once again the website I got the recipe from is not working, so here are your amounts:

42 oz olive oil
28 oz coconut oil
18 oz palm oil
32 oz goat milk
12.7 oz lye
1 cup ground oatmeal
4 Tbsp (1/4 cup) honey

I really like the way it turned out.  Since it was a larger batch, it took longer to mix, and I was able to get some pictures of the process.

Time for the disclaimer.  I am fairly new to making soap, so I don’t guarantee that I am using the best techniques, and I’m certain there are parts I could do better.  All you experts feel free to correct my methods or give constructive criticism.  Without further disclaimers, here is my tutorial on making soap.

The first thing is to measure all the additives that you will need.  Unless otherwise specified soap recipes give measurements by weight, not volume.  I weighed my oatmeal.

Then I got out my coffee grinder.  I set it for fine and turned it on.

You want the oatmeal to be ground as fine as you can get it.

Next I weighed my honey.  Again, it is by weight, not volume.

I had my goat’s milk frozen into cubes.  It makes them easy to measure, and they are small enough I can cut them in half to get my measurement exact.  Once measured, I set the milk back in the freezer until I’m ready for it.

Next I weighed my olive oil and poured it into a 5 quart stainless steel pan.  This is the container the soap will be made in.  Be sure to use a spatula and get all of the oil in the pan.

Next I weighed my palm oil.  Because it comes in a solid form, it is a fat rather than an oil.

I measured the coconut oil, also a fat, and added it to my large microwavable measuring bowl.

Then I microwaved it, a minute at a time, until it was just melted.  While it was melting, I got the necessary safety items and put them on.

I also made sure I had my molds lined with parchment paper sitting handy to fill.  I also had that handy dandy little scraper thing ready to smooth the soap.

Then it was time to measure my sodium hydroxide (or lye–make sure it is 100%)  Remember that all items coming into contact need to be stainless steel or plastic.

Once it’s measured out, slowly add the lye to the frozen milk.

Stir carefully.  It’s easier to splash those frozen milk cubes.  Keep stirring until the lye is completely dissolved.

Set the milk/lye mixture aside and retrieve the melted palm and coconut oils from the microwave.  Add it to the olive oil in the large stainless steel pan.

You can check temperatures, but it’s always worked out that the oils have cooled to about 92* F and the lye is around the same temperature.  Carefully add the milk/lye mixture to the oils.

Use the stick blender and mix.  You can see the lye mixture is on the bottom and the oils are all on top.

As you mix, you can see the two are combining.  It’s not just mixing together.  The fats and oils and lye mixed together create a chemical reaction called saponification.

Keep mixing until you have reached trace.  This means that when you move the blender (or turn it off and lift it out) you can see the trace it leaves in the mixture.  If you’re not sure about this, you can mix until your temperature has risen by five degrees.

At this point, you add the oatmeal and the honey.

Mix the oatmeal and honey into the soap.  I must say, this was a bit thick by the time I had it completely mixed in.

Pour the soap into the molds.

Use the scraper to smooth the top.  Because the milk can get dark with the heat produced by the lye, I put the soap in the freezer for 30 minutes and then move it to the refrigerator.  Remove it from the refrigerator after 24 hours.

After 24 hours, the soap can be removed from the tray molds and be cut.

The soap in small decorative molds need to sit for another 24 hours to be solid enough not to lose their shape.

If they don’t easily pop out of the molds, you can put them back in the refrigerator for a little bit and then try again.

Edited 10 July 2019 to provide the recipe because the website I got it from keeps disappearing.

104 Responses to “Making Honey Oatmeal Goat Milk Soap”

  1. Tracy February 3, 2011 at 8:47 pm #

    Your soap looks great Teresa! 😀

    • Teresa February 3, 2011 at 8:57 pm #

      Thanks! The hard part is waiting for it to cure before I can try it.

  2. Sharon February 3, 2011 at 9:04 pm #

    Looks pretty! Have you tried any of the first soap that you made? How do you like it?

    • Teresa February 3, 2011 at 9:06 pm #

      I’ve tried and love the first one. It feels so nice and clean, but it doesn’t dry the skin. The lavender needs to cure a little bit longer, and I’ll probably try the sage this weekend.

  3. Rich February 3, 2011 at 9:20 pm #

    The soap looks awesome… do you ever sell any of your soap? There is a woman here in Michigan who makes a lot of different Goat Milk Soap “Flavors” and I love them…

    • Teresa February 3, 2011 at 9:24 pm #

      Glad you think it looks good. I’m practicing right now with the intent to sell soon. I figure I’ll keep playing and try to get some feedback on which ones are recipes/combinations I want to keep making for sale.

  4. Alica February 3, 2011 at 10:44 pm #

    This looks nice! Someday I will learn to make soap, really I will…it’s one of the many things on my “to do” list. I will never, ever be bored! 🙂

    • Teresa February 3, 2011 at 10:48 pm #

      That’s what I say too. I just don’t understand when people are bored. I must say, blogging has spurred me on to do these things I keep saying I want to do. Accountability. That’s what blogging is. The soap really was easier than I thought it might be.

  5. Joani February 4, 2011 at 1:10 am #

    The soap looks very interesting and has all the right ingredients. Luv the goats also. They R so cute.

    • Teresa February 4, 2011 at 7:07 am #

      Thank you. Goats for milk and soap does seem to be a good combination.

  6. texwisgirl February 4, 2011 at 9:37 am #

    I bet it’s great! I probably couldn’t wait for it to cure properly before I’d use it. 🙂

    • Teresa February 4, 2011 at 10:39 am #

      This is one that I am really excited to try. I think it will be good for dry, winter skin!

  7. Chelsey February 4, 2011 at 10:58 am #

    I stumbled on your website the other day and love it. I have some Nigerian Dwarf goats, so the goat posts make me happy! 🙂 I make soaps as well – but I have never put them in the refrigerator. What exactly does that do? I know some of my soaps tend to overheat – is that what it does? Help to keep it from overheating? I usually put a box over mine and leave it overnight. I wonder what difference it makes in the soap to put it in the refrigerator…

    • Teresa February 4, 2011 at 11:25 am #

      When you put it in the refrigerator, it keeps the milk from turning dark due to the high temperatures. I read that in Milk Soapmaking by Anne L. Watson. It’s a really good resource. If you leave it in the refrigerator too long, it can make it a bit crumbly.

  8. JoyceAnn February 4, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    I’ve never made soap , but it looks good to me. I have used goat milk soap that Peggy over at ” Hidden Haven Homestead ” made , it was wonderful. Bet , yours will be wonderful too.

    ~ Blessings ~

    • Teresa February 4, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

      I hope it finishes well. Are you going to make soap after your goats kid?

  9. Sandy February 4, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    This looks wonderful! I made soap for the first time over the summer! Not goats milk soap though.. but its lovely soap :O)
    Looks like you did a great job!

    • Teresa February 4, 2011 at 7:14 pm #

      Thanks! I have been really enjoying the soap making. Next–filling my luffa gourds for soapy sponges!

  10. M~ February 5, 2011 at 10:18 am #

    I. Love. Your. Blog!
    I have been wanting to try buttermilk soap… Would I use the buttermilk just as you used goats milk? Freeze it?

    • Teresa February 5, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

      I am not experienced enough to tell whether the buttermilk would change any of the other measurements. I would use the same process. In fact I have buttermilk cubes in the freezer waiting to be turned into buttermilk castile soap. That one is 30 oz olive oil, 9 oz buttermilk and 3.8 oz lye. That come from Anne L. Watson’s book Milk Soapmaking.

  11. Sandy February 6, 2011 at 9:06 am #

    If you have time when you do your luffa sponges, would love a how to post on that!

    • Teresa February 6, 2011 at 10:55 am #

      I’m working on that today, but the post won’t be up until the Alphabe-Thursday S post (Soapy Sponges). That would be a week from this coming Wednesday.

  12. kelly April 15, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    can you tell us how many pounds of soap this recipe makes? can’t wait to make it 🙂

    • Teresa April 15, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

      I didn’t weigh the finished product. I got the recipe here. I don’t remember if it gave a finished weight. It does take a long time to cure.

  13. Arlyna November 29, 2011 at 1:01 pm #

    I was wondering if for the Olive Oil, does it matter what type? Like Virgin or Extra Virgin Olive Oil?

    • Teresa November 29, 2011 at 1:03 pm #

      If you order larger quantities from soapmaking supply stores, they send pomace-less than food grade. I’m not sure that it would make a difference in soap, but it’s going to be way more expensive using olive oil for food use.

  14. cindy December 27, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    Where is your recipe ..?

    • Teresa December 27, 2011 at 7:44 pm #

      There is a link in the post, or you can click HERE.

      • christy July 7, 2019 at 9:14 am #

        the link for the soap recipe isn’t working. do you have it somewhere else? I have made this soap so many times and went to make it this morning and can’t find the recipe. I’m trying not to enter panic mode.

      • Teresa July 7, 2019 at 7:15 pm #

        Check back. The domain tends to go away and then it comes back. I’ll try to find the recipe and add it back in, but I’m not sure when I’ll get around to it.

  15. deb conner January 25, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    Help! I would like to use your recipe, but when I click on it, it says the url can’t be found. How can I get the recipe? Thanks.

  16. Susan February 28, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Can you tell me how many pounds this recipe makes? I think I have a 5 lb mold

    • Teresa February 28, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

      It makes four pounds or just over.

  17. Christy March 2, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    I am so excited to make this! I got all the ingredients today and am going to give it a try tomorrow. Does it smell great? I know that in a lot of goat milk oatmeal soup, they identify a “fragrance oil” ingredient. Is that needed or does the soap smell great without it?

    • Teresa March 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

      Mine doesn’t have any scent really other than clean/soapy. I don’t add any fragrance to it, and it’s one of my best selling soaps for people with sensitive skin. Good luck and have fun!

  18. brandi June 10, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    hi there, thank you for posting this recipe, i just finished making. I dont know that it will turn out though, it took almost 40 minutes of blending to get it to reach trace. and it was a very weak trace at that. I burned up my stick blender in the process. I reached a point where i tested the trace, it was weak, then i blended more, and it was still the same consistency. that happened about 25 minutes in, and it never thickened more. can you tell me what happened? i did have to replace the palm oil with olive oil, which i read somewhere else that you can do that safely. could that be it? i do realize that there was olive oil already in the ingredients, but i have replaced the palm oil with it in other recipes and it did just fine. although they were not goats milk recipes. thank you for your advice.

    • Teresa June 10, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

      I’m not sure what would have caused it. I’ve used that recipe successfully many times, and I’ve never had to mix it more than fifteen minutes to reach trace. The different oil would be my guess, but I can’t say for sure.

      • brandi June 10, 2012 at 11:18 pm #

        i am sure that is what it is then. i will see how this one sets up, and if it doesnt work, then i will buy palm oil and try again! thanks so much for the quick response!

      • Teresa June 10, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

        No problem. It might even be the difference in temperature with not having to melt the palm oil. Hope it turns out.

  19. brandi June 11, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    its me again! just letting you know i think that the soap will turn out just fine. I am going to let it sit in the mold one more day just in case. I made a different batch of soap the other day, a basic oatmeal soap- but being that i am a beginner, once again i made a mistake. some how the lye didnt mix, and there were lye chunks in the soap. they are small, but still noticeable. is that too dangerous to use? should i throw them away? thank you.

    • Teresa June 12, 2012 at 7:58 am #

      I’m afraid I can’t help you on that one. Anne Watson has some really good books on making soap that were very helpful to me. Smart Soapmaking and Milk Soapmaking.

      • brandi June 12, 2012 at 5:06 pm #

        i plan on getting those books asap! i saw that you had mentioned them before and said i must get them! thanks again!

      • Teresa June 12, 2012 at 5:35 pm #

        Hope they help!

  20. Laura August 13, 2012 at 12:50 am #

    If the ingredients are by weight, how much does a tablespoon weigh? I assume that the cup of oatmeal is considered 8 oz, but could you clarify for the honey… Thanks

    • Teresa August 13, 2012 at 8:18 am #

      I measure the honey and oatmeal by volume.

      • Laura August 14, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

        Thank you!

  21. Dixie Thielen August 18, 2012 at 1:25 am #

    i am new to this art also and i was wondering what the cure time was on this soap?

    • Teresa August 18, 2012 at 7:15 am #

      It generally takes about four weeks. My goat’s milk soap without the honey doesn’t take as long.

  22. Heavenly Bliss Farm, Leighton August 20, 2012 at 8:04 am #

    Why do you have to wait four weeks to use? We made this and it looks and feels great . Thank you for posting the recipe .

    • Teresa August 20, 2012 at 10:37 am #

      Typically you wait for it to dry some. Otherwise it will just melt away really quickly. It won’t hurt you to use it sooner.

  23. Donna September 2, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    where do I buy the goats milk

    • Teresa September 2, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

      I don’t know where you would buy it. I milk my own goats. I do know I’ve seen pictures in books of canned goat milk. You could buy that at Wal-Mart. If you have someone close that milks, I would ask them.

  24. Dixie Thielen September 3, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    i see so many recipes that use palm oil. In my small town i can not find it so i was wondering what you could use in its place?

    • Teresa September 3, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

      I have never done my own recipe or tried substitutions, so I can’t help you with that. There are places to order palm oil online. That’s how I get mine.

  25. Faith September 9, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    Love the recipe for the honey oatmeal,, goats-milk soap……I’m new at making soap ( I have a few batches under me)….I do know that if there are chunks of lye in the soap….don’t use it, it will burn the skin.( according to the soap makers companion the lye pockets can be do to insufficinet stirring, to much lye or stirring too slow).
    make sure the recipes are ran through a lye calculator before doing to insure the lye amount is correct)

  26. Statzfamily September 13, 2012 at 6:34 pm #

    Teresa- Where do you purchase your oils?

    • Teresa September 13, 2012 at 6:43 pm #

      I’ve ordered them from Brambleberry recently. I’ve been happy with them.

  27. Nia September 20, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    This recipe, how many bars of soap can you get out of it? and how much does it cost you to make this batch?

    • Teresa September 20, 2012 at 10:20 am #

      I get 24 approximately 4 oz. bars. The cost is going to vary widely depending on where you get your supplies and the quantities you buy them in. I really wouldn’t be able to break it down that way.

  28. Susan Jones November 11, 2012 at 3:59 pm #

    Just finished making Goat’s Milk Honey Oatmeal Soap from you instructions/recipe and it was a blast! I considered it a success because it reached trace and I did it without burning myself with the lye (a major concern since my father once burned himself severely using lye). I did add lavender fragrance oil and I believe it will turn out beautifully. Thanks for your blog and your experience with this. I plan to make more for our church bazaar next year and possibly to sell as I become more adept at doing it.

    • Teresa November 11, 2012 at 5:00 pm #

      So glad you took the leap! I love making soap. I admit, the lye was a major hurdle for me to get past too. 🙂

  29. Kat January 11, 2013 at 3:24 pm #

    I was wondering what source you use for your soap making supplies; molds, scraper ect…
    I am brand new to this but would love to give it a go…

    • Teresa January 11, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

      My dad has made some of my molds. I bought one from Hoegger’s supply. is a great source.

  30. Penny February 4, 2013 at 11:48 pm #

    I like your recipe and will try. I have made goats milk soap but have never tried freezing the milk. I would caution your readers that when making other cold process soaps you should never add the lye to the water or other liquid. Always add the liquid slowly to the lye. This is a very important safety rule; you never want the lye to splash.
    Also to your reader with small lye granules in the finished product… This is due to it quite stirring your lye mixture well enough. Try stirring a bit longer to ensure the lye is totally dissolved.
    Happy soap making and thanks for teaching me a new method and recipe to try!

    • Teresa February 5, 2013 at 6:44 am #

      This is contradictory to every book I’ve ever read. It clearly states the lye should be added to the liquid, not the way you have stated.

      • Anonymous April 2, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

        You are right. Always lye TO THE water/milk. Then you can add that mixture to the oils.

      • Angie April 2, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

        You are right. Always lye TO THE water/milk. Then you can add that mixture to the oils.

      • Teresa April 2, 2013 at 6:08 pm #


  31. fibromom1 March 30, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

    Dito to Alicia’s comment, ” Someday I will learn to make soap, really I will…it’s one of the many things on my “to do” list.” I APPLAUD YOUR WORK. Everything is so pretty… the final mixture looks yummy like white chocolate! I LOVE your molds!

    I want to try to milk one goat once a day and let the babe/babes nurse the rest of the time… will they get enough nourishment? I would guess that my extra milking will just help stimulate more milk production, yes? I really want to have milk to drink, cream to make cheese from and I also want to make hypoallergenic, herb-free soap. With milking only once a day, how can I store the milk? Freeze it until I have enough to play with?

    Beautiful post. Thanks so much.

    • Teresa March 30, 2013 at 8:53 pm #

      I let my girls raise their kids, but I know some people shut the moms and kids apart overnight and milk in the morning. I’m not sure if they milk them partially out and leave the rest for the kids or what. Can’t help a lot on that one. The milk freezes well. I have an entire freezer for milk just for bottle kids if I have them. I also freeze a bunch in ice cube trays for making soap. I do have several soaps for sale in my market if you don’t have access to any close by.

  32. Jessica April 4, 2013 at 9:46 am #

    How many lbs. of soap do your molds each hold? I have a 5lb. mold so I’m trying to figure out how to divide your recipe. Thanks.

    • Teresa April 4, 2013 at 9:48 am #

      My tray molds each hold two pounds. If you do this in the larger mold, it will turn brown in the center. I recommend smaller molds. Even the two pound loaf mold will turn the center brown.

  33. Jill DZines August 31, 2013 at 11:57 pm #

    I just made your oatmeal-honey-goatmilk soap… it looks gorgeous and smells amazing (oatmeal-milk-honey fragrance oil). I’ll NEVER be able to wait the full 4 weeks to use it!! LOL! Thanks for your excellent instructions! Now I just wish I lived somewhere where I could have goats!! 🙂

    • Teresa September 1, 2013 at 7:08 am #

      It is safe to use it sooner, but it won’t last as long. 😉 Glad you found this useful.

  34. Heather October 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

    If I wanted to add frangrance oil or essential oil to this recipe how much should I add?

    • Teresa October 17, 2013 at 1:40 pm #

      That would depend on the fragrance and how strong you wanted it. Most recipes recommend .7 – 1 oz per pound of soap. That’s just a general guide.

  35. Aida Lough March 19, 2014 at 8:01 pm #

    Is your recipe the same if I want to do the hot process?
    Thanks, I’m ready to start!

    • Teresa March 19, 2014 at 8:09 pm #

      I don’t know. I’ve never done hot process.

  36. Kim Vander Helm September 17, 2014 at 7:35 am #

    I do hot process in a crock pot. Can this recipe be done that way. if so when would be a good time to add the oatmeal and honey?

    • Teresa September 17, 2014 at 5:13 pm #

      I’ve never done hot process, so I can’t help with that question. Sorry.

  37. Anonymous December 8, 2014 at 9:18 pm #

    How many molds do I need for the goat milk oatmeal and honey soap recipe ?

    • Teresa December 8, 2014 at 10:09 pm #

      It depends on the type of mold(s) you use. You need enough to hold four pounds of soap.

  38. Theresa Twyeffort May 8, 2015 at 6:29 am #

    Would you please share which brands of oils you are using? I’ve wanted to make soap for a long time – the lye scares me too – but need to keep this as free from chemicals and dyes as possible because of allergies. Thank you

  39. Olga I October 6, 2015 at 9:21 am #

    I’m new making soap, so I wonder why did you put the soap in the fridge, if it suppose to use heat to cure?.., thank you

    • Teresa October 6, 2015 at 10:08 am #

      It helps to keep it from turning brown. This is a cold process soap.

  40. ROSI GABINA January 6, 2016 at 4:30 pm #

    amei!!!vou tentar fazr!!

    • Teresa January 6, 2016 at 5:53 pm #

      Obrigado. Boa sorte.

  41. Jena Montiverdi February 1, 2016 at 8:21 pm #

    Do you have to allow this recipe to cure for 2wks like you do with others? We are new to this as well. Thanks!

    • Teresa February 1, 2016 at 8:49 pm #

      I would let it cure a good three to four weeks. It is pretty soft with the honey in it.

  42. Sheila Hood February 17, 2016 at 9:06 pm #

    How many bars of soap does this make?
    And do I have to put it into the refrigerator? Thank you, sheila😊

  43. Heather March 2, 2016 at 11:32 am #

    I love this blog! I am wondering if you ever did try the buttermilk Castile soap? Do I need to warm the olive oil so that it matches the lye-milk mixture?

  44. Anne March 2, 2016 at 2:33 pm #

    i am so blown away by the talent you must have in order to make this soap! i am going to try to make my own soap i went to for most of my ingredients, but i need to find a goat farmer for the goat milk, (i like to be as organic as possible). anyway i am rambling, thanks for the post. i am hooked on your site!

  45. Lisa October 23, 2016 at 9:33 pm #

    How many bars will this recipe make? Where is best place to purchase palm oil?

  46. Margarita February 13, 2017 at 11:01 pm #

    I want to do this recipe Sooner I get the palm oil

  47. Elizabeth March 2, 2017 at 9:32 am #

    I like your soap, how hot should the oil be. Can’t one oil be use. The measurements should it be one.

  48. Linda May 12, 2019 at 5:18 pm #

    I have never made soap yet, but you made it look so easy this will be the first recipe I will do,.

    Thank you

  49. Rebecca July 27, 2019 at 9:09 am #

    Thank you for sharing. The instructions/steps were explained very clearly, and the pictures were a definite plus. I can’t wait to try this recipe!

  50. Holly Bass June 30, 2020 at 5:03 pm #

    Hi! I was wondering if it’s safe to just leave the soap uncovered while in the freezer? My husband was worried about it being toxic because of the lye. Love to hear back.

    Thank You! Holly Bass

    • Teresa June 30, 2020 at 5:43 pm #

      It’s fine. Just don’t touch it.


  1. Laurel’s Soap Making Blog » Blog Archive » Making Honey Oatmeal Goat Milk Soap « Eden Hills's Blog - February 4, 2011

    […] Original post by Teresa […]

  2. My Seven Links, an Award, and a Sunset « Eden Hills's Blog - September 8, 2011

    […] most popular post is Making Honey Oatmeal Soap.  Actually it is the second most popular post with 413 page views.  I do know why it’s […]

  3. Blogging Review and a Question « Eden Hills's Blog - December 30, 2012

    […] Making Honey Oatmeal Goat Milk Soap with 4581 views. […]

  4. New Soap Recipes 2015-02-09 - LatherLass - February 9, 2015

    […] Milk Soap Honey Almond Chamomile Goat’s Milk Soap Homemade Goat’s Milk Soap Recipes Honey Oatmeal Goat Milk Soap Homemade Melt & Pour Goat’s Milk Soap Goat Milk Soap Sandalwood and Sage Soap Easy Soap […]

  5. Goats Milk Soap - Beginnings - Ever Growing Farm | Ever Growing Farm - February 21, 2015

    […] 2012, and, using the Summer Bee Calculator for all of our measurements and the directions from Eden Hills, we made 9 pounds of soap which is now curing in our […]

I love to hear from you, so please leave a comment. If you are having problems leaving a comment Wordpress has made changes to require you to log into your Wordpress or Gravatar account associated with the e-mail address. You can try a different e-mail address, or I have enabled people to leave a comment without an e-mail address. Sorry for any inconvenience because I love hearing from you and want to make it as easy as possible for you to communicate with me.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

%d bloggers like this: